Posts by Sea Breeze

31

A year since I have been back

by Lee Marsh in

jw
friends

a year ago i came back to jwd.

the 2 years before that.

when covid stated, i was diagnosed with colon cancer.

Sea Breeze

I recently got the news that after one year of testing I officially am NED (No Evidence of Disease)!!!

Loved your story Lee marsh. I'm sorry you had to go through so much alone. Know that you are valued here.

11

I do not understand the universal issue anymore

by psyco in

to explain the universal issue we are often referring to a teacher and his/her students.. let us imagine that a teacher (god) has an hour (everlasting) class to show his students (humans and angels) how to fix a broken clock (to reign).. one student (adam) says he is able to fix it better independently, without the teacher's help (universal issue).. the teacher let him demonstrate that in front of all the others, but instead of an hour lesson he gives him only 5 minutes (death after a limited period of time) and he blocks one of the student's hands behind his back (imperfection).. if i were one of the other students watching i could think: but those were not the initial conditions the student was in when he said he could, and what would have happened leaving him more time and both hands free?.

am i crazy?.

Sea Breeze

@psyco

No, you are not crazy. Quite the opposite.

The WT uses this issue to try and explain away the fact that Christ died for you personally. Hebrews 9: 27 says that there will be a personal judgement after you die. The new covenant explained in Mt. 26: 27-28 says that the NC is "for the forgiveness of sns".

The legal exchange is in 2. Cor. 5: 21 "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him"

So, Jesus becomes the scapegoat for believers, just like when the OT priests would place the sins of someone onto the goat and send him away into the wilderness where he would shurely be torn to pieces by wild animals.

Jesus offers to be your scapegoat. Since the goat had no sins, he could die "in place of the sinner". This of course pictured Jesus who had no sins and was torn to pieces "for you", if you accept it...... which JW's don't. They reject the NC "for the forgiveness of sins at every Memorial".

This is why when we met Christians at the doors, they would look at us kinda weird and many would say something like, " Oh sweetie, Is Jesus your personal savior"? We would look at them like they were dunces. However, they believed that there would be a "personal judgement" just as Jesus and God's Word said there would be. Hence, the need for a "persona savior" and not a corporate one.

JW's believe in a group judgement, so this made no sense to us. JW's believe God is judgeing religions, not individuals.

The WT would like nothing better for people to waste their entire life trying to be "good enough" to prove some vague "universal issue" while ignoring the real issue for man - their impending death and subsequent judgement after they die.

God has taken care of this, but it requires faith, not works because the works pat of the exchange was finished at Calvary when Jesus said "it is finished" as he died.

True, Jesus did once say he that has endured to the end s the one who will be saved. But, remember Jesus spoke mainly to the Jews as their King. He words apply primarily to Jews, during the Great Tribultion. This was the context of that conversation. The Church (along with church-age promises) will already be gone by this time.

The apostles were given by God the ministry of reconciliation. The kingdom message is for during the GT, after the church is 'snatched away". JW's preach the Kindom message "out of season".

Scripture says that if church-age believers preach any other message other than the ministry of reconciliation, they are cursed. - Gal. 1: 8-9

The message of some vague universal issue was not taught by the apostles. It is a misdirection, mental sleight of hand; and many have taken the bait because they only read the parts of the bible that the WT approves.

"by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified" - Rom. 3: 20

11

AP NEWS - Charges put focus on Jehovah’s Witnesses’ handling of abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

https://apnews.com/article/jehovahs-witnesses-child-abuse-pennsylvania-investigation-01660ed00de1f2a02f87c0597c9ae0af?fbclid=iwar0f8whtbzsjnyzze0p3xg8t1qcprtvjh9wfe2zzryv1pnr-ospnejxri0o.

charges put focus on jehovah’s witnesses’ handling of abuse.

by mark scolforo and peter smith - yesterday.

Sea Breeze

Thanks for posting this Barb.

One of the nine Pennsylvania suspects accused by the grand jury, a man accused of sexually molesting his daughter as a form of of discipline when she was a child, killed himself when police sought to arrest him on rape and other charges in October.

Randy Watters once told me a story about a WT printing manager who jumped out of a 30 story building at Bethel becasue it came to light he was molesing bethelite boys.

How do they manage to keep this stuff quiet among the R&F?

21

Joined an online meeting incognito

by joey jojo in

got a link for a zoom meeting and thought id share my experience about the mid-week meeting.. guessing about 100 - 120 in cong.. 50 on zoom, only 8 with cameras on - all elderly.

watching from a detached point of view it's so obvious at how it is nothing but a glorified sales meeting, all designed to promote the org.

inspirational videos about how everyone can/ should do more to help with projects, in particular how to look after the kingdom hall, complete with bar charts showing levels of achievement to aspire to.. interestingly, tonights book study is about alcohol..

Sea Breeze

nothing but a glorified sales meeting....complete with bar charts showing levels of achievement

Compare that with one of Jesus' meetings:

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Sea Breeze

Yes constantly testing and challenging.

@PIMA - I wasn't trying to offend you personally. My point is that it is a worthy endeavor to examine truth statements to see if they self implode or not. We were never allowed to think logically as JWs. They just ran over us mentally regardless of whether or not the doctrines were consistent with the New Testament.

For example, we are told in scripture not to trust man. So what did we do? We trusted implicitly in men to the point where little by little we came to believe the GB were the mouthpiece of God himself... instead of his word. I have to own that.

Gal. 1: 8-9 says that if we preach anything the apostles didn't preach we are cursed. So, what did we preach? We preached a gospel that required rejecting the the new covenanat that is explicitly "for the forgiveness of sins". (Mt. 26: 27-28) I have to own that too.

Once we leave the Word of God, a person could end up anywhere. They could end up like DJW, unable to state if it is objectively wrong if someone murders him or not. I know that murder is wrong because God says so. Being made in his image, I also know this intuitively. This makes sense to me. My worldview is logically consistent.

Atheists on the other hand, while reluctant to admit objective morality, do have it. Atheists are born with as much objective morality as the rest of us. That's not the question. The question is why should atheists believe in ANY objective morality? If all we are is a collection of chance chemicals and dna copying mistakes, then how can I be sure that any objective morality exists? Atheist morality is inconsistant and self emplodes.

Animals kill each other all the time, even eating their own young as primates have been observed doing. No big deal, they are animals. Animals do what animals do. Chemicals fizz the way they fizz. Why should one chemical care how another chemical fizzes?

When atheists argue that they don't need the bible to determine if murder or sexually abusing children is wrong, they are standing on Christian ground. They have to morally borrow from the Christian worldview in order to argue against it. They have to use a Christian presupposition (being made in the image of God) in order to argure against Christianity. Interesting isn't it?

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Sea Breeze

DJW,

Why can't you admit that it is objectively morally wrong for someone to murder you? We all know what you would claim if this was tested. Do you really need scientists, the bible or someone else to give you permission to believe this?

Is your mind that far gone?

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Sea Breeze

DJW,

I can see you are really struggling with this. Let's go to a dictionary:

MUR'DER, noun [Latin mors.]

1. The act of unlawfully killing a human being with premeditated malice, by a person of sound mind. To constitute murder in law, the person killing another must be of sound mind or in possession of his reason, and the act must be done with malice prepense, aforethought or premeditated; but malice may be implied, as well as express.

Does it make sense to you why people in general don't trust atheists if you cannot even admit that it would be morally wrong for someone to take your own life?

How could anyone feel safe under the control of someone like this?

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Sea Breeze

At this time I prefer to not state if I think either of those two types of human morality are correct or not, since it is difficult for me to make a definite decision about such. Determining what is moral or immoral in some specific situations is not an easy one for me to make, especially when it comes to deciding what morality to apply to people other than myself.

DJW,

Would it help if I put a gun to your head and told you that I just loved killing people?

(Not that I would ever do that. ) But, would an event like that help you to decide?

Can you see now why polls indicate that most people don't trust atheists and why they are among the least liked groups?

After leaving one of the most least liked groups as a JW, you found one that may be even less popular.

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Sea Breeze

It all comes down to proof.

@PIMA - Have you tested this statement to see if it is true?

See what I'm saying? If your truth statement about poof, can't be proven then it contradicts itself and logically should rejected by its own standard.

Sea Breeze: What if someone chooses a purpose that requires them to murder you?
You seem to be saying that, without God, we cannot agree on standards of behavior.

@TonusOH - No, I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that people who preach freedom in subjective morality chatacterized by pop sayings such as:

1. to each his own

2. diferent strokes for different folks

3. if it makes you happy it can't be that bad

..would immediately change their philosophy about subjectivity when someone tests that worldview by purtting a gun to their head. Then the worldview would be no, you can't do that because it is objectively wrong to murder me.

See what I'm saying? There must be some room for objective morality in order for it to make sense. Otherwise, the word "morality" itself woud have no meaning.

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Sea Breeze

DJW,

There is widespread belief that atheists are untrustworthy and lack an objective moral compass. However, I have seen a great deal of evidence to the contrary in bold comments by Cofty and Simon over the years. I usually don't weigh in on these differences among atheists, until now.

Other atheists on this board (certainly not all) seem to promote the subjectivity type of morality, which leads to absurdity as I have tried to demonstrate.

I have also seen marked differences between European atheists and American style atheists.

There are reliable similarities as well as differences between believers and disbelievers in the moral values and principles they endorse. And, that is what I'm trying to explore.